When guys talk....

I am a woman.

Sound a bit Tantric?

Its not meant to. It is merely a statement of fact. I am a woman and therefore I speak only from a female perspective. Which is one reason, among many, for enjoying my research so much. I get to get inside the heads of men. It feels like a privileged position, a ticket to a much coveted show, a feeling more akin to joining the Masons – not that I will ever know how that feels - unless someone starts a branch of, ugh, the Masonettes.

Men tell me the best stuff. They don’t hold back. They speak the exact same language that women do. Men weave fabulous, great big pictures of their intimate lives. Pictures filled with as much passion, drama and longing as any female could muster. There is little point in embellishing the stories because they know that I will change their identity. For an hour or two, it is just them, me, and a Dictaphone. Sometimes I think they’re even better at story telling than women are. Perhaps because they have less opportunities. As William Leith pointed out in Observer Woman last week, men will always tell you they’re OK, even when they’re not.

Now they email me as well. Here is Danny. Aged twenty-two, he describes the humungous hurdles jumped in order to lose his virginity. As he says, ‘with men, virginity is not often ‘chosen’.

Danny. Born 1985. Lost virginity aged 20

I thought I'd share my experience because I think it's quite indicative of guys in my situation. I'd been in single sex schools since I was eight years old. I recall having a few girl mates back then and even found an old home video of a birthday party of mine with a girl in it! I moved schools at eight into the private sector because my parents didn't like the poor grades I was bringing home. Educationally this was clearly the best thing to do, but socially it was awful.

I honestly believe that I talked to perhaps two or three girls from ages nine until thirteen. I just didn't get any exposure to them. My single sex school turned co-ed in my final year, but they were only accepting girls under eight, (I was thirteen), so this was no good either.

Reading old journals, I recall getting crushes on celebrities quite easily. There used to be a TV show called "The Secret World of Alex Mack" and I crushed on the main character in that. Scully from X-Files and Xena too. I am sure this was normal boy/teen behavior, but I feel that due to my lack of exposure to girls, TV/films became a medium through which I had sexual feelings.

Later, I moved onto another private school which was co-ed. However, they had separate boy's schools and girl's school. We're all on the same campus but lessons were taught separately. Again, I had virtually no contact with girls. At Sixth form we finally got mixed with the girls in classes. This was my first real exposure to females. In the lower 6th I got my first real crush, her name was Linda. I got absolutely obsessed with her, at this point I also started getting depressed; I wanted a girlfriend, I didn't have any male friends to go out with either. I was just so alone. My happiness for the day hinged on Linda talking to me, this could be the most minor of conversations, small talk or talking about school. But it still meant a lot. When she looked at me, I recall how great it made me feel. I used to get jealous of other guys who got to be her friend. This crush lasted until I left school. There were two other girls who were kinda friendly with me. One really saw through me and said out loud that she thought I was lonely.

Anyway, at nineteen and leaving for university, I'd still never held hands, never kissed or never been out with a girl. It was getting really awful. I hoped Uni would change that.

Living in halls I was obviously exposed to lots of women, however, our halls were small so there was no sleeping around cause everyone knew each other. Things were getting worse and worse, I'd never been so depressed, I'd sleep all day and cry most of the night. Then one of the girls in my classes said she liked me. Long story short, she was a tease. The entire friendship/relationship was over the phone and she refused to see me and had a boyfriend. This was a real low point in my life and I went on anti-depressants.

I was so desperate to experience what everyone else had so I visited an escort. I didn't have intercourse with her, just a hand-job. I was glad I did it, although when I'm down now, I beat up over it. I hate to admit that to people and I think I've only ever told one person about it. It's not something to be proud of, and I admire that James from Virgin School's courage to do that on camera of all places. Amazing.

Anyway months passed along, crushing on so many girls and having no chance. I was twenty and I hadn't kissed a girl and had to visit a hooker to get close to one. Then a girl messaged me on a social networking site and instantly made moves. She wanted to meet, so we did. I was so nervous but she really liked me. That same night, I kissed her and she came back to mine, where I lost my virginity. To be completely honest, the actual sex wasn't that good, I preferred other acts. But what was amazing was sleeping next to a girl, to embrace her, her warmth, just cuddling someone and falling asleep.

We went out and then split up three months later and that's my story. Since then, two and a half years ago I haven't kissed anyone else nor have I got anywhere close to being intimate. I'm not shy, but girls just don't go for me that way. But considering I hadn't spoken to a girl for more than two minutes since I was eight, I'm proud of what I achieved. In fact, in my final year at Uni, I lived with three girls in a house and now it seems most of my good friends are female.

Also about female virgins, I know they exist, plenty of them, but usually with women, it’s out of choice. With men it’s not chosen. If I was a girl and wanted sex tonight, I could easily get some in any club. Sure it would be a one-night stand. But as a guy you can’t do that, unless you have looks, charm and confidence.

Comments

[Mia]

I don't think its fair to say "With men it’s not chosen".
Yes I could have gone to a club to find some guy to lose mine to, but I personally couldn't push myself to do that no matter how charming the guy was. To believe that you need looks and charm to bag a girl for yourself, is such a weak excuse. That's just your own answer to your own insecurities.
But its not a matter of just finding someone to do the deed with. For a female virgin there are many mental barriers to overcome to get to that moment in the first place.
I did not esentially "choose" to be a virgin for as long as I did. Circumstances and personal issues I had to work through prevented me from putting myself in the circumstance of losing it.
So when you say its a matter of choice for women, its certainly not as simple as that. For starters there's the huge fear of pain/bleeding and knowing its not going to feel good at all the first time. Guys don't have that worry. What they worry about is performance anxiety or being laughed at by the girl. And whilst mental issues can cut deeper than physical ones, girls also can suffer from the same mental stress as this. Not to mention questioning if the guy they are with is just there to say that they scored themselves a virgin.
Maybe you just think its easier for girls to lose their virginity because you believe all we have to do is open up and say aaah, but believe me its a lot more complicated than that. And thats a fact, not a matter of choice.

[Anon]

You're the first girl who I've come across who disagrees with the statement that it's easier for girls to lose their virginity.

I mean, I think the stats speak for themselves. More men are virgins older in their lives than women, and these are from surveys where there'd be an inherent bias from men lying due to social stigma.

The reason I say it's easier is that with girls it's not outside circumstances that force them to stay a virgin without physical contact. With girls it's you. And, by elementary logic, what do you have more control over? Your own brain or other people?

I mean, I understand that it's mental barriers but you have more control over your own mind than you do others, who are beyond your control.

My mentioning looks, charm, witt isn't an insecurity - it's from my experience. The (few) virgins I know in real life, and *plenty* online all look like geeks and are shy.

And I've yet to see one account of a woman who has had to visit an escort for their first touch.

If you think decisions within your own mind and emotions are outside your control, then that's a really bad state of affairs. But at least it's not the rest of the world saying you can't have it.

[Me]

I got my first sexual experience from an Escort. There was certainly nothing sleezy about it at all. She was young, beautifutl, funny, stylish and just great to be with. She was very understanding about my lack of experience. There was something though she did that boosted my confidence a great deal...she did not belive I was still a virgin and took a great deal of persuading! World...look out because here I come (literally!)

[Dj]

I agree. With women, it is a choice. I am 23 male and still a virgin. Not by choice but for the simple fact that I have yet to find anyone to go out with! I work and go to school and get home at 7:30 every night not leaving much time to socialize. I do go out with my friends but again, all of them are in long relationships or married. In a way I am like danny, I know a lot of girls and have asked all of them out, all said no. I get the, "You are a very nice guy but you are just not my type. So I went out today and bought some new clothes..." and they always come to me with their problems; they say I help them feel better. I have had one girlfriend that lasted 3 weeks and really didn't go anywhere besides going to lunch together and cuddling (that was in senior year of high school). I think it was just the fact that I was a senior and she was a sophomore. I have tried online dating thing, still no go. All a woman has to do is hit a bar, or go to one of their single guy friends and will get a positive answer that night! Now I must say I wouldn't say yes to anyone but the odds are, the guy standing next to me will.

Now I am to the point also of getting an escort. I have actually started shopping around if you want to call it that but have yet to find one that I am conformable with. The way I figure it, either pay an escort and know what is going to happen, or go to a bar, order 10 drinks at $6 a pop for 10 different girls and have them all reject you or even pay monthly fees to the dating sites and have no one return your messages.

So with that said, if things stay on there course, I will not be a virgin by the end of this year and I can move on.

[The Virginity Project]

Thanks for your comments Dj and very timely-I'll tell you why. I interviewed a man this week who lost his virginity to a prostitute/escort/sex worker, when he was sixteen years old. He described the experience as an intense mixture of nerves and pleasure but the interesting part of the story is that within four weeks of this experience, he met a girl and lost his virginity all over again, but this time with someone that he really liked - and who really liked him as well.
My point is, that getting over that first hurdle can be a huge confidence booster, often in ways that are so subtle that we might not even notice them ourselves - but other people clearly do.
Follow your gut instinct I say. Good luck!

[Free Ringtones]

I have to completely agree with DJ. For men its not a choice designed by any means of our own intentions. Its more from a woman's perspective. The decent looking guy would strike out, but even the ugly betty can get laid if she wanted to -- any given night.

[Danny]

I'm the guy who sent in the original post, totally forgot I done that. Nice to see comments here too. Just a mistake in the post, I was born in 1984 and am now 24! Things still haven't changed since the post though. I am seeing a pattern of behaviour that repeats itself over and over:

Meet a girl, or get closer to a girl online (who I know in real life), develop a crush, she just sees me as a friend asks me about other guys/boyfriends/sex. I get hurt. I also come across 'short guy' bias alot (I'm 5ft6"), from what I can see being a short male is probably very similar to being a fat female in terms of attractiveness - quite repulsive. The nicest girls I know, they have great hearts all really don't like short guys sexually.

Stupidly I only ever get close to women but I *always* end up falling in 'love' with them.

Since it's been around 4 years now since I last held a girl I am thinking of going to an escort again. I am pretty sure this will continue for the rest of my life so I will have to come to terms with it.

[CJ]

Wow, this is an interesting post! I have some fears/issues similar to those expressed here, such as a girl thinking that there is something 'wrong' with me for still being a virgin at my age (22) and feeling unable to break out of this little cycle. Well, by some standards I suppose I wouldn't be a virgin, but I will get to that.

One of my bigger obstacles aside from the fact that I AM 22 and a virgin, is my medical disability. I will try to avoid getting too graphic, but basically, I was born without the ability to #1 or #2 voluntarily. As you might imagine, it was quite difficult to avoid embarrassment early on. I've had some surgeries to help, but currently the technology isn't there to REVERSE my problem. I've had a bladder enlargement and something called a cecostomy, which in short allows me to forcefully clean out my system. It's still not perfect though. I have to wear briefs with a pad. This is something I sure don't look forward to explaining to any girl that will see me naked. It still makes me feel inadequate as a human being, because everyone gets potty trained when they're very little.

I did grow up around girls. I remember 2 of my best friends in elementary school (this is REALLY early, maybe grade 2) being girls, and both of them moved away before I'd known them very long. Towards the end of elementary school most of my friends were going to girls' birthday parties and dances, etc., but I was never invited. I guess I was just too shy. Around grade 6 or grade 7 we had to do swing dancing in PE. The girl I was dancing with told me I was really good at it, and I just kind of backed away. I thought she was weird, but I realize now that she probably liked me. I also didn't like dancing, so that didn't help.

Then in high school I was a pretty big loner. I had a few friends and a few acquaintances, but they were all much more popular than me. I would admire the good looking girls but never actually try anything - just didn't have the courage to do it. The beginning of University was quite similar, although over the last year or so I have a lot more female friends, and I started making a lot more friends in general.

I started going to the gym a year ago for the sake of boosting my self-confidence, as I'd always been quite scrawny at 5'10" and 130 lbs. I've been lazy with it lately, but I'm up to about 160 lbs and at least feel better about my appearance. I've been told I look "healthier" and for a little while I had all the good looking girls at work smiling at me. Unfortunately, I still find it very tough to make conversation with strangers, so when one of them says "hi" to me in the break room I just say "hi" back. I'm thinking of doing toastmasters or something like that, hoping it might help.

I've tried the online dating thing, first unintentionally then intentionally. For whatever reason my brother's girlfriend gave my contact info to her sister. I came home to get an IM from someone I'd never talked to at all, and eventually found out who it was. I guess we hit it off in our little chats after a while, because soon we were, in an extremely naive sense, "together", even though we'd never met in person or even talked on the phone. She actually lived kind of far away and said she was probably moving here soon. One long weekend I was going to go for a drive and meet + visit her, but the road conditions were brutal and I was forced to stay. A while later she was with her ex and apologized to me, which was fine. Then when she was in town she told me she wanted us to go see a movie, along with her (male) friend. So we did, and I actually cried at the movie because I was pretty uncomfortable with the whole situation; it was the movie that we were going to see when I was to visit her. Anyways, afterward we decided to remain friends, but whenever I sent her a message to say hi she never responded. Then one day she sends me a message saying she heard I got a new guitar, and proceeds to ask me to GIVE it to her. Wow!! Of course I was annoyed, as I don't like having friends that will only speak to me when they want something from me. I told her I was removing her from my contacts list. Later I hear indirectly that she told her sister that I had broken down, cried, and begged her to be with me. You have to love the lies that people make up to make themselves look better. Anyway, sorry for getting off track but this has been on my mind lately because my brother is getting married very soon to the same girlfriend he had then. I'm one of the groomsmen, and this scum is likely the bridesmaid that I will have to walk up with. So now I have to figure out how to avoid talking to her.

I signed up for a dating site. Met one girl who was clingy after meeting her once and I wasn't interested in. Then another who I liked quite a bit. She was still with her boyfriend when she messaged me - told me she kept trying to break up with him but he always cried and made her feel bad. She told me very early that she regretted being with him because they were never friends first. Ok that's fine. So when she'd broken up with him, we went out. Then a few more times. Unfortunately it was really hard to make a move of any kind because the whole "friends first" thing was in my mind, and she'd at the end of the night she'd say something like, "thanks I had fun" then run off quickly! She canceled each of our last 2 dates, at first because she was "sick", then because she apparently thought we didn't have a concrete date set. Apparently she met someone else and I was too slow to make a move. Maybe I was, but she sure liked to make it difficult!

That's pretty much the extent of my dating experience. The only girl I've ever held hands with was a stripper, and I've still never even kissed a girl! Though at a stag a while ago, I met a girl that I might've had a one night stand with. I would have gone for it - she was very nice and I don't believe I need to "save it" for someone special. Unfortunately I had a few too many drinks, smoked pot for the first time, and after that (I remember pretty much nothing past smoking the joint) I apparently drank a lot more + started behaving like a complete moron. The next night, well, one of the guys hired a pair of "strippers" for us. A bunch of them got together and paid one of them to give me a blowjob, because apparently when I was too far gone the previous night, I'd told that girl and the rest of the world that I was a virgin. The experience was great and she was pretty nice, but she rushed it and her compliments sure didn't seem very genuine.

So now I'm unsure of what to do. I'm still a virgin by most peoples' definitions, and well, I sure as hell feel like it. I've never had a girlfriend, and I'm so damn horrible at approaching women with the intent of starting a decent conversation when I don't know them. I absolutely HATE clubs. For one thing, I intend to join toastmasters, which will hopefully make me a more confident speaker. Secondly, I will get back into weightlifting and hopefully manage to make myself keep up with it. Lastly, I'm thinking about seeking out an escort to actually lose my virginity to. Unfortunately I am a student and would find it difficult to justify spending $200 or so on one at this point. Fortunately, I'll be done school pretty soon and I've already got interviews coming up. Once I start working in a real job I could take a weekend off and go to Vegas or something, get an escort and play some poker. Though not at the same time... as I think it might be wiser to play in the casino where I will actually make some money if I win. $200/hour in rake would be excessive :).

I hope I didn't go off topic too much here. This is the first time I've really put all this down, so my thoughts are definitely a bit jumbled.

[The Virginity Project]

Dear CJ
This is a fabulous response to a post that really seems to have sparked people's interest. I wish you the best. You have a brilliant 'get up and go attitude' and you'll go far with that. Don't get put off, keep going and you'll get to where you want to go. Stay in touch, I'd love to know how you go - my email address is on the 'about' section of the blog.....best wishes from Kate

[linds]

nice to hear other ppl's stories, it makes me feel better coz i now know that im not alone. Well im a 30yr old VIRGIN, still waiting for MR RIGHT, My story starts with a very bad BACKGROUND in my CHILDHOOD, my Mum was in an abusive marriage, and to cut this long story shot i hate to remember everything that took place before she died when i was 15yrs old. so suddenly i had to stop schooling and start MOTHERING my little sisters then" selling staff in order to help my elder brother look after myself and siblings. As a result,i cldnt find time to interact with my age group, and i hated to meet them bcoz they wld ask me why im not in schl, this affected my SELF ESTEEM and CONFIDENCE. well thats where my battle started, I became too protective with myself and i was afraid to meet guys even though i tried a few eventualy, but it didnt work out though, bcoz I refused to HAVE SEX with them. I actually disappointed many of them guys,which i now regret a lot, i probably mised all the oppotunities that came around in the past. My dream was to meet somebody understanding and caring, but i never gave anybody the chance to get to know me well, Now when i was 25yrs old, i met somebody thru a friend, and he tried to persuade me to have SEX with him again, we were nearly there, but i got so much afraid and jumped off the bed, he understood how i felt and he lets me go, this CHASTITY kindof BEHAVIOR was still in me, i always felt that it has to be on the right time or possibly after MARRIAGE, but here we go im now 30 still waiting. My mind now realy tells me to just have sex for the sake of LOSING this VIRGINTY, but still my instincts tells me thats wrong, shld wait still,but im realy starting to feel TERRIFIED,becoz of age and wanting to have kids wilst im younger, Truly life isnt fare, i believe nobody wants this to happen to them, i dont think choice is the WORD here, its always something to do with life experiences?? and how we grew up, nevertheless i wish everybody GOOD LUCK, i wish if our communities understood our situations and just accept us as we are, but it seems to be a very EMBARASSING ISSUE that can never be discussed openely, It is realy a shame!!!!!!!!!!

[Danny]

Once again I'm the original guy who posted that story and am randomly finding myself drunk and googling old posts of mine. Since I wrote this alot has changed and alot has stayed the same. The pattern did indeed repeat, I met a girl at work, became best friends, fell in love, got hurt, ended badly, went to hookers instead!

So now my only meaningful sexual relationship is with a prostitute who seems to like me. Not in a sexual way, I mean as a friend. But since she's a prostitute I get he luxury of paying her to have sex. But she's amazing and seems to be my friend.

I'm not sure if I even have hope of getting a gf anymore. My insecurities about my height were massively amplified by my most recent "crush"/best friend who used to make fun out of how short I was.

But hey, at least there's nice hookers out there! Everyone I've ever met seems to like me. Most likely cause I go there to talk about my lack of gf and just want to cuddle. (easy work for them!)

[fr]

Danny, I just read these posts and really hope you check back so you can read this: Don't be worried about your height! I know it can be hard when you perceive that something about you is unattractive, but you should try your best to relax and build confidence. I have some gorgeous female friends who have had boyfriends that were shorter than them. Boyfriends they loved and found hot.
Have you tried asking out short girls? I have a friend who is five ft. nothing and had a relationship with a guy who was five ft. three because she found his intense personality and athletic figure attractive.

[David]

This story has a fair ammount of similarities with mine. Throughout my teenage years I had no experience with girls of any note, I genuinely never had a single girl express an interest in me. I had this massive crush on a girl from the begining of sixth form which continued after we'd left (with the aid of facebook stalking, I do check up on her every now and then but am not anywhere near as infatuated as I was.) I got to the age of 20 without having kissed, been out with etc. with a girl. I started uni back in september and had my very first experience this year. A girl who lived on my corridor broke up with her long term boy friend early in the year and basically used me as a rebound. She herself is a virgin and seems to have issues with losing it and so we've not had sex but every now and again she's come along to my room and we've kissed, snuggled and she has sometimes spent the night with me (I agree that holding a girl in your arms and sleeping together is amazing.) Although she said she liked me and attractive I was basically there as her back up when she wasn't having success with other guys. Eventually she allowed me to "try" to have sex with her but the times this has happened she has freaked out and asked me to stop. The furthest we got was her reluctantly giving me a handjob. Obviously it felt good but was unfullfilling as it lacked the intimacy I crave. Basically I know I can't get what I want from her, either a relationship or sex. Throughout my first year of uni any attempt to chat up girls has horribly failed. And so here I am, 21, back home for the summer, knowing realistically I have no chance of anything happening with any girls until I return to uni and even then I feel that the chances are small. The idea of losing my virginity to an escort has recently occured to me. I feel that my lack of experience is what is really holding me back, it's a bit of a vicious cycle: I can't get anywhere with girls because I don't have experience, to get experience I need to get somewhere with girls, I can't get anywhere with girls because I have no experience etc... The problem is I don't know how much having sex with an escort would help me. My hope is that it'd give me confidence; I've had lots of advice from people saying that once you've got your first time out of the way it makes getting with girls a whole lot easier. But if I did loose my virginity this way I'd always know that I didn't really acheive it myself. The girl at uni built up my confidence slightly only to knock it right back down again. I think in the long run she's made me less confident. I'm at a bit of a loose end...

[The Virginity Project]

D, you have no idea how universal this story is. Its almost like the mantra of the 21 year old man. I get sent SO many stories just like this one. I doubt it helps to know that but perhaps it helps to know that youre not alone. Search under the appropriate section on my blog and you will find stories from young men who have taken the path you are considering and find out how it panned out for them. But also consider this....there are all sorts of different people in this world - there are those that make you feel great about yourself and those that dont. The right woman for you will not make you feel crap about this. The right woman will usher you through this doorway with kindness and consideration, possibly even excitement. Keep your mind open. Everything could change when you least expect
it!

[Danny]

I seem to be using the comments on this post as some sort of annual update on my life. I'm the guy who originally sent in that post.

So now I'm 28 and I'm less concerned about women/virginity and am quite happy about that. I remember nights where I used to beat myself up about not having kissed etc. Sometimes physically through minor forms of self harm.

I've come to the point in my life where I think I've accepted myself for who I am. It does frustrate me that I'm rubbish with women but that's me. I've also become comfortable with my physical appearance.

Around this time last year I started going out with a hooker I was seeing. It was a pretty good relationship but I didn't really feel as strongly about her. Those 4 months I went out with her have had a dramatic impact on my life as it was nice someone attractive being attracted to me. So I think I'm over my historic issues. It's incredibly shallow but it made me feel good.

Still I'm funny around women but I'm equally more confident as I don't seem to care. I know some nice women exist out there who are accepting (like my ex). So I guess this is a post to say to all the 18-25 year old males out there - it does get better! And hookers do really help as you really meet some amazing women like that. I've most likely got a warped opinion on this but some of the hookers I see are the nicest people I know.

I've been diagnosed with skin condition on my penis which makes sex painful so I'm trying to make the most of my sex life while I can as I probably won't be able to have one when I'm in my late 30s.

I also noticed that much of my loneliness was surrounded by my sex drive. I think after I turned 25 I stopped thinking of every average looking woman as attractive. so I stopped getting lonely. It's still there but it's no where even on the same scale. For me, my early 20s were marked by sexual drive setting off feelings of loneliness. It's hard to live a normal life when an average woman will set off feelings of depression. Now I'm 'older' that doesn't happen, and it's only in the rare occasions where I meet a woman I'm truly attracted to that those feelings start. And that's much rarer.